Curse

Day Trooper · Nov 06, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ghetto Prophet

And for all you people complaining about how invincible SF is; I would just like to point out that before SF people used OBSFLESH TANKS. It's the same nonsense, just took a little longer.

I'd like to point out a few flaws with this 'Obby Flesh' assertion:

1). While true that Obby Flesh tanks did do UW before the SF-craze, they needed the help of Ursans in order to get past the Chamber and get to the entrance of the Mountains. Why? Because Obby Flesh tanks would get creamed by the Aatxes and Graspings. Also the Ursan team did Vale and Mountains. Then came along the Permasin, who could do all these areas solo (except Wrathful Spirits)

2). While Obby Flesh worked well for some parts of UW, for other aspects of the game like dungeon running it pales in comparison to the efficiency of the Permasin. Just yesterday, I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.

The key with SF is being able to run past all the stuff that's not necessary to kill, and thus allows groups to easily speed through not just UW but most other elite areas of the game.

Also, as others have stated, the unmatched speed efficiency of SF extremely limits playstyles, and so peeps are forced to either play Sins, H/H or attempt to team-up with others who don't use SF.

The above are reasons why imho Shadow Form is still broken and should see further updates (and not just a change to one zone ANet).

This being said, I've come to the conclusion that ANet won't touch SF any further, but the main point of my post here was to clarify that you really can't compare Obby Flesh (gogo 50% movement speed reduction and attacks still hit you) to SF...

Bryant Again · Nov 06, 2009, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winry Sagara

123 (12 if under effect of the ESENCE OF CELERITY) and you're invincible. 678 for GoLE, EBSoH and Sliver Armor to kill stuff. Is this playing a game?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to play the game in a much more simplistic manner. But there's a problem when playing as such gets you through the later and more difficult areas of the game.

UnChosen · Nov 06, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winry Sagara

123 (12 if under effect of the ESENCE OF CELERITY) and you're invincible. 678 for GoLE, EBSoH and Sliver Armor to kill stuff. Is this playing a game?

Its really too bad that the majority of sins can't even do that correctly, at least 50% of pugs utterly fail even with the so called 12/123 (and quite a few "guild" groups too)....usually accompanied by a whole bunch of ridiculous overused excuse: Lag, there's popup, there's popup (browser), MSN message froze his comp, "sound downstairs, maybe robber", "my mouse click didn't respond" (yeah...mouse clicking skills), and my favourite "it wasn't my fault, the game code is buggy".

I can't imagine what happens when somehow we have to do "balanced" group....frenzy/heal sig wars + click skill prot monk against 300 dmg aataxes ftw?

Of course...this doesn't even take into account areas like EOTN dungeons and DoA which are even more rigged against pugs for less reward.

Reverend Dr · Nov 06, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

5) The option of being invincible in an online game shouldn't exist.

It really amazes me how obvious this should be and yet people are actually trying to argue to keep it.

I mean I've used grossly overpowered builds in PvE and PvP, but I've had enough since to say, "I use this because it is very effective, but yes it is overpowered." Is it really so hard to say this? Or is it that they don't want to admit it because they are afraid Anet might change things, which would mean they are deliberately trying to shape the game for their own personal gain? Or is it that the staunch defenders really just have zero idea about game design?

own age myname · Nov 06, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Its really too bad that the majority of sins can't even do that correctly, at least 50% of pugs utterly fail even with the so called 12/123 (and quite a few "guild" groups too)....usually accompanied by a whole bunch of ridiculous overused excuse: Lag, there's popup, there's popup (browser), MSN message froze his comp, "sound downstairs, maybe robber", "my mouse click didn't respond" (yeah...mouse clicking skills), and my favourite "it wasn't my fault, the game code is buggy".

Who says those didn't happen? I've failed to maintain SF because I had a lagg spikes, so you wouldn't believe me?

Kc Quipor Ultra · Nov 06, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

If the SF will be nerfed , a other class will be over powered

Vazze · Nov 06, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.

The key with SF is being able to run past all the stuff that's not necessary to kill, and thus allows groups to easily speed through not just UW but most other elite areas of the game.

I think the LT should make the "The Mad King's Influence" a permanent PvE skill. Maybe add another one for the heck of it: "The Mad King's fury: every foe within radar range dies and drops an ecto". Wouldn't that be fun?

Martin Alvito · Nov 06, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

I'd like to point out a few flaws with this 'Obby Flesh' assertion:

1). While true that Obby Flesh tanks did do UW before the SF-craze, they needed the help of Ursans in order to get past the Chamber and get to the entrance of the Mountains. Why? Because Obby Flesh tanks would get creamed by the Aatxes and Graspings. Also the Ursan team did Vale and Mountains. Then came along the Permasin, who could do all these areas solo (except Wrathful Spirits)

We also didn't use individual consumables, or have Nicholas rock candies. Stack enough run buff on the Obs Flesh tanks, and they'll run safely past the Graspings and Aatxes. We were still under 30 minutes with the Ursans clearing Mountain, Vale and Chamber while wasting a slot on a pure healer. People have learned a lot in those 18 months, and that'll push teams well under 30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

2). While Obby Flesh worked well for some parts of UW, for other aspects of the game like dungeon running it pales in comparison to the efficiency of the Permasin. Just yesterday, I heard about an all Permasin FrostmawSC team that could do that dungeon in a staggering 13 minutes! As Permasins can just run their merry way past all the non-essential stuff in a dungeon, I can see how this kind of time would be possible. No way in hell could an Obby Flesh tank (or any other class I imagine) ever achieve a time like that.

I'll agree with this assessment. In a lot of dungeons, you'll be back to 605/smite or 605/smite with alternative solutions for spots with enchant strips. That will slow people down quite a bit. But you can still pound out, say, Kath in about 40 minutes. And that's before people apply themselves to the new problem and find ways to shave time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Day Trooper

This being said, I've come to the conclusion that ANet won't touch SF any further, but the main point of my post here was to clarify that you really can't compare Obby Flesh (gogo 50% movement speed reduction and attacks still hit you) to SF...

Again, eat enough Nicholas candy and the movement speed reduction goes bye bye. The real drawback is that you're going to take damage and that Mantra of Earth/Stone Striker only go so far in reducing damage. (No way you can use Stoneflesh while running past things.) That will make running past content slow or impossible, depending on whether or not there are safe spots to hide in like the old school W/Mo Forgerunner did.

toocooltang · Nov 06, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Since when if something is abused in PVP will it not be abused x10 worse in PVE, espcially when its buffed. see the thread below

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/showthread.php?t=472448

and amen day tropper

Coney · Nov 07, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Hmm, not banned yet?

One must wonder, why they still allow the perma crap. I mean, why not add more MOBs that strip enchants. Make it slightly more difficult for the "NO PAIN ALL GAIN" 7-8 Assn groups...

Caligo · Nov 09, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

We also didn't use individual consumables, or have Nicholas rock candies. Stack enough run buff on the Obs Flesh tanks, and they'll run safely past the Graspings and Aatxes. We were still under 30 minutes with the Ursans clearing Mountain, Vale and Chamber while wasting a slot on a pure healer. People have learned a lot in those 18 months, and that'll push teams well under 30.

Again, eat enough Nicholas candy and the movement speed reduction goes bye bye. The real drawback is that you're going to take damage and that Mantra of Earth/Stone Striker only go so far in reducing damage. (No way you can use Stoneflesh while running past things.) That will make running past content slow or impossible, depending on whether or not there are safe spots to hide in like the old school W/Mo Forgerunner did.

Sooooo, what you're REALLY saying is that any time new content is implemented (in this case, partywide and personal consumables), anet should destroy an elite skill? Or, how about they should just take away the cons! How silly of them to add something to boost SKILLS without thinking of the consequences it would have on SKILLS... Really? If they honestly implemented all these things (pve skills, consumables, elite buffs/nerfs) without forseeing the toll it'd have on farming and the economy, they should really be finding a new developer team... The game is changing. Most people who have played since the beginning either pvp, /afk power trade, or FARM. Why wouldn't you take advantage of a more efficient way of farming? The point has been made over and over and over again: even if SF and OF are nerfed, there WILL be another "broken" way to efficiently farm. Why waste your time crying to no end, but to ruin other people's gaming experience. I've seen several times throughout this thread of "In other games..." this and "...other games" that... if GW is such a horrible game in comparison, go play your other games. You paid your dues and had your fun, now let everyone who still enjoys playing do so in peace.

Martin Alvito · Nov 09, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

@ Caligo:

1) Yes, I think the devs regularly implement changes without foreseeing their impact. R/A, anyone? Just the most recent example.

2) The skills should get nerfed because: god mode is bad, ANet has had a clear policy of nerfing OP farm builds and your OP farm build affects the play experience of others.

If you wanted to spare Obs Flesh, you could blow up all of the personal consumable run buffs (not Essence). But the QQ from that would be epic. Either way, SF has to go. Making it easily maintainable was a terrible idea from the start.

Tastyy · Nov 09, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

2) The skills should get nerfed because: god mode is bad, ANet has had a clear policy of nerfing OP farm builds and your OP farm build affects the play experience of others.

How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?

About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.

I honestly think it's sad how people want to squeeze the tiny bit of fun that's left of GW. For veteran players like me, all I do is farm. I think it's fun. I'd be damned if someone wants it taken away because they either feel that no one should be richer than them (I'm holier than thou) or think it's bad because oh, no, the economy, the economy, oh no.

qvtkc · Nov 09, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?

That is in fact exactly it. Knowing that you could have done something much faster, more efficiently and with a greater chance of success sort of kills the fun for everyone who likes to play as good as they possibly can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

About economy, ectos have always been 6-7k/ea. SF didn't change that.

That's funny, I remember ectos being 13k. Mr. Veteran.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

I honestly think it's sad how people want to squeeze the tiny bit of fun that's left of GW. For veteran players like me, all I do is farm. I think it's fun. I'd be damned if someone wants it taken away because they either feel that no one should be richer than them (I'm holier than thou) or think it's bad because oh, no, the economy, the economy, oh no.

Only a complete retard would care about something as utterly pointless, random, and already beyond all hope wrecked piece of crap thing as the so-called economy. People still play for fun, for the challenge of actually playing, not farming. If you think that is sad, then I think you are sad.

Golgotha · Nov 09, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

That is in fact exactly it. Knowing that you could have done something much faster, more efficiently and with a greater chance of success sort of kills the fun for everyone who likes to play as good as they possibly can.

That's funny, I remember ectos being 13k. Mr. Veteran.

Only a complete retard would care about something as utterly pointless, random, and already beyond all hope wrecked piece of crap thing as the so-called economy. People still play for fun, for the challenge of actually playing, not farming. If you think that is sad, then I think you are sad.

Farming is playing regardless of if it's how you prefer to play and a lot of people find both a challenge and fun from it. How you think these things are mutually exclusive is beyond me.

Bryant Again · Nov 09, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tastyy

How so? Perhaps you're just butthurt that you can't stand to see other people have some fun?

If people are having "fun" at the cost of the game then I suppose you could call us a little upset.

Golgotha · Nov 09, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If people are having "fun" at the cost of the game then I suppose you could call us a little upset.

And what cost is Shadow Form imposing on your game?

Bryant Again · Nov 09, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

And what cost is Shadow Form imposing on your game?

Imbalanced and broken gameplay.

coil · Nov 09, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Imbalanced and broken gameplay.

is there really a point in changing things now since they've been going on for so long?

if anything youll still be "behind" and it will be 10x harder for you to "catch up".

damage has been done, get over it, have fun while you can and qq.

Tenebrae · Nov 09, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

Farming is playing regardless of if it's how you prefer to play and a lot of people find both a challenge and fun from it. How you think these things are mutually exclusive is beyond me.

Ill explain it to you. You confuse farming with the SF issue.
You wanna farm the hell out of tengus for feathers , undeads for orr emblems or 55 fahranur or whatever ? fine , i dont care but when it comes to MISSIONS or ELITE ZONES that are supposed to be a challenge ( yes , THAT is a challenge , not trying to do a SC in 9 mins ) and someone has a "godmode" button ( skill combo , call it whatever ) .... that challenge becomes a zone where X ppl farm whatever.

Let me put this clear , dont be mistaken , there are haters , farmers , and ppl that just see things from the outside and see it all clear. SF is broken and it affects the entire balance of the game when it comes to endgame playing. No matter what you do or what you think , that is an undeniable truth so if someone answers "no" to the OP question , that someone is clueless about GW.

If your "challenges" are searching for ways to farm X , then youll be pleased because right now , that "challenge" doesnt exist pal , lets be serious .